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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 13:28:28 GMT -5
He's attacking a witness in the case in violation of the gag order just prior to that witnesses testimony, but it's okay, because , reasons. Because… the Constitution and law?
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 13:39:22 GMT -5
He's attacking a witness in the case in violation of the gag order just prior to that witnesses testimony, but it's okay, because , reasons. Because… the Constitution and law? If a court instructed a person you were prosecuting not to attack your witness under penalty of contempt of court, something tells me you would have a concern if that defendant were to attack your witness. Or do you just ignore court rulings when it comes to Trump?
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 13:45:38 GMT -5
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 13:47:57 GMT -5
This is this case: NEW YORK (AP) — A New York appeals court judge Tuesday rejected Donald Trump’s latest attempt to delay his hush money criminal trial, taking just 12 minutes to swat aside an argument that it should be postponed while the former president fights a gag order.
Justice Cynthia Kern’s ruling was the second time in as many days that the state’s mid-level appeals court refused to postpone the trial, set to begin next week, further narrowing any plausible path to the delay that Trump’s legal team has repeatedly sought.apnews.com/article/donald-trump-gag-order-hush-money-juan-merchan-0a10c7ee0236f760ce50c05cafb163ef
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 13:49:00 GMT -5
Because… the Constitution and law? If a court instructed a person you were prosecuting not to attack your witness under penalty of contempt of court, something tells me you would have a concern if that defendant were to attack your witness. Or do you just ignore court rulings when it comes to Trump? The concern for violation of the gag order would nothing to do with using the statements to make the Defendant look bad in front of the jury. Its very common for Defendants going into trial to show their butts to the court. I don’t get to tell the jury about it as ammunition against the Defendant. Now if the Defendant choses to show out in front of the jury, then the jury can draw their own conclusions as to in-court-conduct that happens in front of them. But I don’t get to showcase evidence of the Defendant’s character that has happened procedurally outside of the jury’s presence and I don’t even get to comment on things the Defendant does in front of them except on the substance of his testimony and his demeanor when doing so.
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 13:49:50 GMT -5
That has nothing to do with using violations of the gag order as character evidence against Trump.
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 13:51:25 GMT -5
The court’s order is consistent with New York and U.S. Supreme Court law which, in order to protect the administration of justice, allows a court to restrict a party’s extrajudicial speech that is “substantially likely to have a materially prejudicial effect” or that presents a “‘reasonable likelihood’ of a serious and imminent threat” to the integrity of the trial.supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/501/1030/
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 13:54:10 GMT -5
That has nothing to do with using violations of the gag order as character evidence against Trump. I'm not speaking of what is before the jury. Tomorrow the prosecution will cite about 10 instances where Trump has clearly violated the legally sound gag order. He's free to appeal, but I surly hope you don't condone that lack of respect for the court's authority. Especially considering the order have been upheld on any appeal thus far.
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 13:54:26 GMT -5
The court’s order is consistent with New York and U.S. Supreme Court law which, in order to protect the administration of justice, allows a court to restrict a party’s extrajudicial speech that is “substantially likely to have a materially prejudicial effect” or that presents a “‘reasonable likelihood’ of a serious and imminent threat” to the integrity of the trial.supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/501/1030/ Again, that has nothing to do with using allegations of violations of the gag order against him in the jury trial. Gag orders are allowed to exist. Violations of gag orders are not allowed to be used to show the jury what bad guy the Defendant is.
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 13:58:31 GMT -5
That has nothing to do with using violations of the gag order as character evidence against Trump. I'm not speaking of what is before the jury. Tomorrow the prosecution will cite about 10 instances where Trump has clearly violated the legally sound gag order. He's free to appeal, but I surly hope you don't condone that lack of respect for the court's authority. That’s fine if all they’re doing are contempt proceedings outside of the jury’s presence that they jury will not know about. What isn’t ok is using the gag order violations as evidence or impeachable conduct in front of the jury. The article I posted indicates the prosecution wants to present evidence to the jury about Trump’s gag order violations.
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 14:00:29 GMT -5
I'm not speaking of what is before the jury. Tomorrow the prosecution will cite about 10 instances where Trump has clearly violated the legally sound gag order. He's free to appeal, but I surly hope you don't condone that lack of respect for the court's authority. That’s fine if all they’re doing are contempt proceedings outside of the jury’s presence that they jury will not know about. What isn’t ok is using the gag order violations as evidence or impeachable conduct in front of the jury. The article I posted indicates the prosecution wants to present evidence to the jury about Trump’s gag order violations. We're talking about two different things, and I agree with you as there is so much other impeachable conduct that using the gag order violations in front of the jury is high risk, low reward.
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 14:01:27 GMT -5
Trump was out attacking witnesses literally on the courthouse steps today.
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 14:09:25 GMT -5
That’s fine if all they’re doing are contempt proceedings outside of the jury’s presence that they jury will not know about. What isn’t ok is using the gag order violations as evidence or impeachable conduct in front of the jury. The article I posted indicates the prosecution wants to present evidence to the jury about Trump’s gag order violations. We're talking about two different things, and I agree with you as there is so much other impeachable conduct that using the gag order violations in front of the jury is high risk, low reward. My original point is that I don’t think there is validly impeachable conduct at this stage. The unrelated civil suits shouldn’t be impeachable. Now a Defendant on the stand, by his own volition, can open the door to all sorts of “prior bad act” evidence that normally isn’t admissible. I could foresee Trump opening said doors and all of the stuff and more that the prosecution would like to put in front of the jury that simply makes Trump look bad as a human being. But the way to do that isn’t by having the judge make incorrect rulings up front. Because Trump can now say that he relied on the judge’s incorrect ruling when preparing to testify. Therefore things he will volunteer that makes the prior bad act fair game will no longer be deemed to be Trump opening the door. This is 4-D chess. Trump is winning on the legal side already. But the upholding of the conviction is not likely the prosecution’s end-game. Its influencing the November election. Trump won’t get his conviction overturned before then.
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 14:15:57 GMT -5
I doubt Trump will take the stand, but I'd be thrilled if he did. I'm more curious to see how the court will deal with his clear violations of the gag order, or if the law simply does not apply to him.
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Post by hig on Apr 22, 2024 16:02:38 GMT -5
^^^This
Aren't there consequences if you repeatedly defy the orders from a judge? Any other defendant would probably spend at least the night in jail. Special privilege for the orange one? Why?
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 16:05:40 GMT -5
^^^This Aren't there consequences if you repeatedly defy the orders from the judge? Any other defendant would probably spend the night in jail. Special privilege for the orange one? Why? Because he has a Secret Service detachment.
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Post by hig on Apr 22, 2024 16:16:32 GMT -5
OK, that's the reason he can say whatever he wants even though he's been told to shut up. They would have to lock up his Secret Service detachment too. Thanks for explaining why the law doesn't apply to him. I was afraid it had something to do with his complete and utter immunity.
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 16:18:59 GMT -5
^^^This Aren't there consequences if you repeatedly defy the orders from the judge? Any other defendant would probably spend the night in jail. Special privilege for the orange one? Why? Because he has a Secret Service detachment. Put a stool outside the cell for the agent to sit on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2024 16:30:17 GMT -5
OK, that's the reason he can say whatever he wants even though he's been told to shut up. They would have to lock up his Secret Service detachment too. Thanks for explaining why the law doesn't apply to him. I was afraid it had something to do with his complete and utter immunity. It’s a miscarriage of law just placing a gag order on him. Just one more reason this BS charge won’t stick.
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Post by biminitwisted on Apr 22, 2024 16:36:29 GMT -5
Why should he be free to threaten witnesses when any other defendant legally can't?
Sad that so many just wipe their ass with law and order when it comes to Trump.
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 16:51:38 GMT -5
Because he has a Secret Service detachment. Put a stool outside the cell for the agent to sit on. That will work so long as he isn’t in with anyone else.
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 16:57:16 GMT -5
OK, that's the reason he can say whatever he wants even though he's been told to shut up. They would have to lock up his Secret Service detachment too. Thanks for explaining why the law doesn't apply to him. I was afraid it had something to do with his complete and utter immunity. Jailing for contempt rarely happens in real life (botnot counting restraining order violations). Also, where Trump isn’t likely to be a candidate for incarceration upon conviction, circumstances frown upon him being jailed. Especially now that the trial is commencing. The judge should probably make what findings he will but hold off sentencing for contempt until after the trial. Logistics factor into many punishment decisions in the system.
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Post by cadman on Apr 22, 2024 17:18:39 GMT -5
OK, that's the reason he can say whatever he wants even though he's been told to shut up. They would have to lock up his Secret Service detachment too. Thanks for explaining why the law doesn't apply to him. I was afraid it had something to do with his complete and utter immunity. in all honesty, locking Trump up would be the worst thing they could do. It would play into his political persecution complaint. For people like Trump, hitting them in the pocketbook is a better option. Fine him $1,000 per violation count every single utterance as a separate violation.
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Post by cadman on Apr 22, 2024 17:31:27 GMT -5
I’ve have to look on greater detail at the case later, but the case appears to regard prior criminal convictions. Trump’s civil suits are a totally different creature. Trump's lawyers made the request to determine whether or not they want Trump to testify. According to the Forbes' article he has a right to know the scope of questions. I think you almost need to read the judge's order and not what the media reports. Forbes says they can ask about the case, but not the juries decisions. It would be limited to determining Trump's credibility on the stand. Not sure how you would see the judge's order, but it may help you determine the extent of questioning allowed. The way Trump wants to turn testimony into a campaign speech, his lawyers should not want him to testify. He will not help himself on the stand. But who knows if he will listen to their legal advice.
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Post by ferris1248 on Apr 22, 2024 18:18:04 GMT -5
OK, that's the reason he can say whatever he wants even though he's been told to shut up. They would have to lock up his Secret Service detachment too. Thanks for explaining why the law doesn't apply to him. I was afraid it had something to do with his complete and utter immunity. in all honesty, locking Trump up would be the worst thing they could do. It would play into his political persecution complaint. For people like Trump, hitting them in the pocketbook is a better option. Fine him $1,000 per violation count every single utterance as a separate violation. He wants to be locked up. It plays on his schtick of being a victim and his mantra that if they can do it to me, they can do it to you. I like the monetary fine idea better.
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Post by bullfrog on Apr 22, 2024 18:21:25 GMT -5
I’ve have to look on greater detail at the case later, but the case appears to regard prior criminal convictions. Trump’s civil suits are a totally different creature. Trump's lawyers made the request to determine whether or not they want Trump to testify. According to the Forbes' article he has a right to know the scope of questions. I think you almost need to read the judge's order and not what the media reports. Forbes says they can ask about the case, but not the juries decisions. It would be limited to determining Trump's credibility on the stand. Not sure how you would see the judge's order, but it may help you determine the extent of questioning allowed. The way Trump wants to turn testimony into a campaign speech, his lawyers should not want him to testify. He will not help himself on the stand. But who knows if he will listen to their legal advice. You may be correct. The media usually gets their summaries of legal matters wrong. I’ll look for the order.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2024 20:29:01 GMT -5
From what I have heard so far he should not testify. It’s a completely bull crap case. I don’t think it can stand up on its own. Testifying would not be necessary to destroy the entire case against him. Testifying would open up doors that need not be opened. I think it’s already falling apart.
Just my 2 cents
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Post by Tarponator on Apr 22, 2024 22:20:10 GMT -5
Well, there, it's settled.
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Post by ferris1248 on Apr 23, 2024 5:30:55 GMT -5
From what I have heard so far he should not testify. It’s a completely bull crap case. I don’t think it can stand up on its own. Testifying would not be necessary to destroy the entire case against him. Testifying would open up doors that need not be opened. I think it’s already falling apart. Just my 2 cents What doors "need not be opened"?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2024 7:25:52 GMT -5
If he testifies it allows the court to dig into unrelated issues that otherwise would not be open for discussion
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