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Post by cadman on May 12, 2024 7:15:49 GMT -5
Batteries are guaranteed to last 8 years or 100,000 miles. Which is longer than most people keep a car. Average life of a car is 14 years and most people only own a car 8 years. So most people will not deal with a battery replacement. Battery replacement is between $6000 and $20,000 with Tesla being in the $20,000 range. But there is aftermarket solutions that are cheaper and there are extended warranty options as well. I'd buy the extended warranty if I bought a Tesla. Most studies done are for 3 year and 5 year periods, where the EV is cheaper to maintain. I would guess if a study was done over the life of the vehicle at 14 years, the costs would be about the same for most vehicles. The easy solution for the battery issue would be to buy an extended warranty that covers it. As the technology advances, I am sure battery life will extend and replacement cost will decrease. EVs are here to stay. Hydrogen may come along in a few years to supplement EVs or eventually replace them. But the old ICE vehicle is slowly going to be replaced no matter how much anyone wants to bitch and moan about it. Like any new product, as problems develop, solutions will be found. Now does that " most people" apply to the jeep you are restoring, or the classic cars some on here have, or the older models that are still being used by some, or is it a blanket timeframe for folks that are most always in vehicle debt?
For a runabout it's fine..for hauling my boat and camper and whatever I need to haul or tow, it is not there for me now., nor is the charging infrastructure without unhooking a trailer that is towed. I'm still waiting to get that extra 3-4 mpg, 50 horsepower, and 100 lb/ft torque increase by not having to tow the payment book behind it..
Do I need to have Tarp explain what the word most means to you? It does not mean everyone or all of the people. But 64% of Americans keep a car less than 5 years. EV's are used for long trips all the time. Captj has a Tesla he has said many times he takes on trips. So they are more than a "runabout". Can you tow with most of them, no, but I would not tow with my brother's Chrysler 200 either. People owns tons of vehicles not suited for towing. Most new cars have such small engines these days, I doubt even full size cars can tow much weight. But EV's will be the majority of vehicles on the road within 50 years if hydrogen or another energy source does not replace it. I bet you thought the computer was a passing fad in the 90s too.
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Post by luapnor on May 12, 2024 9:51:55 GMT -5
90s? Everyone but apparently you knew computers were here to stay in the 70s. Its was easy to figure out, computers grew organically, not subsidized, and it developed not by government triggered malinvestment.
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Post by mapper on May 12, 2024 9:54:02 GMT -5
I'm sorry I rubbed your fur the wrong way.
No need to unleash the wordsmith and grammar patrol.
So whatever non upsetting noun you would like to substitute for runabout that has the in general use definition of non towing/hauling passenger vehicle feel free to substitute.
Tender,runabout, coupe, cabriolet, sedan, grocery getter, or whatever other noun or adjective you would like.
Back in the 90's I was teaching myself cad, on dos machines so I could be a draftsman and move inside from being a party chief.
Problem was I was a good party chief, and was worth more to employers outside than inside. So it was a long road to make lead draftsman. By then it was 686 days..lots better than 486..
So yes I'm even familiar with k&e autorangers..and even though I know how they work. I think they still used Harley Davidson transmission parts in them by the sound of them.
Tick tock Tick Tock Tick Tick tick Tick ..Thunk then a distance displayed..
I don't think I'll forget that..lol..
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Post by cadman on May 12, 2024 11:39:23 GMT -5
90s? Everyone but apparently you knew computers were here to stay in the 70s. Its was easy to figure out, computers grew organically, not subsidized, and it developed not by government triggered malinvestment. Oh yeah, it wasn't the defense department that invented the protocols for the Internet.
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Post by Tarponator on May 12, 2024 14:27:04 GMT -5
TCP/IP was invented later by the DoD.
But who can even remember what computing was first invented for (WW2) and the first mainframe sold to (Univ of California)? Organic, my ass. More like Mendoza Man's revisionist history.
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Post by conchydong on May 12, 2024 16:37:16 GMT -5
I thought Al Gore invented the internet.🙄
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Post by whitebacon on May 12, 2024 16:58:08 GMT -5
I thought Al Gore invented the internet.🙄 He totally did. Smartest guy in the room. But came after, or before he fleeced the government out of $400 million. And he has a fat ugly wife, so that's a handicap. He ran away with the money for getting on his knees and swallowing, instead of prison. Gore wouldn't know an internet protocol if you beat him to death with it.
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Post by cadman on May 12, 2024 17:27:12 GMT -5
TCP/IP was invented later by the DoD.
But who can even remember what computing was first invented for (WW2) and the first mainframe sold to (Univ of California)? Organic, my ass. More like Mendoza Man's revisionist history. I was thinking the home computer. TCP/IP was in the 70s, home computers took off in the 80s. The government still has tax credits and grants to develop and expand broadband to more rural areas.
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Post by luapnor on May 13, 2024 8:09:20 GMT -5
90s? Everyone but apparently you knew computers were here to stay in the 70s. Its was easy to figure out, computers grew organically, not subsidized, and it developed not by government triggered malinvestment. Oh yeah, it wasn't the defense department that invented the protocols for the Internet. LOL, you really have to try hard to be right. I never said the internet but that is what you change it to in order to try to be right..
I missed the $7500 subsidies to put a Super Computer in every house. Sony developed the 3.5" floppy, Phillips the CD, HP the inkjet printer, Xerox the mouse... and the list goes on. Comparing what the government purchased is nothing compared to what happened to computers on their own. The government wasnt picking winners and losers, they just moved the tech along... probably at a much greater cost than the private sector would. You, in some wild imagination, think that tech ONLY comes about because of massive government malinvestment.
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Post by PolarsStepdad on May 13, 2024 8:18:42 GMT -5
I wonder what ONI and the NRO think reading these forums talking about who invented the internet and why. I bet they laugh their ass off at us.
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Post by biminitwisted on May 13, 2024 21:10:37 GMT -5
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Post by gandy on May 14, 2024 6:41:57 GMT -5
Needed no more at 1:45 lol
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Post by johngalt on May 15, 2024 13:32:59 GMT -5
TCP/IP was invented later by the DoD.
But who can even remember what computing was first invented for (WW2) and the first mainframe sold to (Univ of California)? Organic, my ass. More like Mendoza Man's revisionist history. If you ever get to Mobile Al it’s worth stopping in and take a tour of the battleship Alabama. The fire control computer is as big as a school bus. 😳 I think it was built in the late 1930’s.
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Post by cyclist on May 15, 2024 13:50:24 GMT -5
www.autoblog.com/2024/05/14/well-built-little-chinese-ev-called-the-seagull-poses-big-threat-to-u-s-auto-industry/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3RslZoUxtONvyxMPxCXpH0H4G14q8JOjr2nUPCDkVI61x1lSS2tzQePV4_aem_AQD5HTdyNPlrdjT30CoHJxuLfaNVtGJAU2TsfgI19_Ejae9X3H2Vyh3m9ROFGHmr-c3F1gkxvTe_mZ4JaDp-RYSiInnovative and affordable.
The car, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China, but drives well and is put together with craftsmanship that rivals U.S. electric vehicles that cost three times as much. A shorter-range version costs under $10,000.
Tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles will keep the Seagull out of America for now, and it likely would sell for more than 12 grand if imported.
But the rapid emergence of low-priced EVs from China could shake up the global auto industry in ways not seen since Japanese makers arrived during the oil crises of the 1970s. BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams,” could be a nightmare for the U.S. auto industry.
“Any car company that’s not paying attention to them as a competitor is going to be lost when they hit their market,” said Sam Fiorani, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions near Philadelphia. “BYD’s entry into the U.S. market isn’t an if. It's a when.”
U.S. politicians and manufacturers already see Chinese EVs as a serious threat. The Biden administration on Tuesday announced 100% tariffs on electric vehicles imported from China, saying they pose a threat to U.S. jobs and national security. But BYD plans an assembly plant in Mexico that could provide a workaround to the tariffs.
The Alliance for American Manufacturing says in a paper that government subsidized Chinese EVs “could end up being an extinction-level event for the U.S. auto sector.”
Earlier this year, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said Chinese EVs are so good that without trade barriers, “they will pretty much demolish most other car companies in the world.”
Outside of China, EVs are often pricey, aimed at higher-income buyers. But Chinese brands offer affordable options for the masses — just as many governments are encouraging a shift away from gasoline vehicles to fight climate change.
Impressive build quality
Inside a huge garage near Detroit, a company called Caresoft Global tore apart a Seagull that its China office purchased and shipped to the U.S.
Company President Terry Woychowski, a former chief engineer on General Motors' pickup trucks, said the car is a “clarion call” for the U.S. industry, which is years behind China in designing low-cost EVs.
After the teardown, Woychowski said he was left wondering if U.S. automakers can adjust. “Things will have to change in some radical ways in order to be able to compete,” he said.
There's no single miracle that explains how BYD can manufacture the Seagull for so little. Instead, Woychowski said the entire car, which can go 252 miles (405 kilometers) per charge, is “an exercise in efficiency.”
Higher U.S. labor costs are a part of the equation. BYD also can keep costs down because of its battery-making expertise — largely lithium iron phosphate chemistry used in consumer products. The batteries cost less but have lower range than most current lithium-ion batteries.
Americans are still learning to make cheaper batteries, Woychowski said.
BYD also makes many of its own parts, including electric motors, dashboards, and bodies, using its huge scale — 3 million vehicles sold worldwide last year — for cost savings.
It designs vehicles with cost and efficiency in mind, he said. For instance, the Seagull has only one windshield wiper, eliminating one motor and one arm, saving on weight, cost and labor to install.
U.S. automakers don't often design vehicles this way and incur excess engineering costs, Woychowski said.
The efficiency means weight savings that add up, allowing the Seagull to travel farther per charge on a smaller battery.
So Detroit needs to quickly re-learn a lot of design and engineering to keep up while shedding practices from a century of building vehicles, Woychowski said.
Favorable impressions
The Seagull still has a quality feel. Doors close solidly. The gray synthetic leather seats have stitching that matches the bright green body color, a feature usually found in more expensive cars. The Seagull tested by Caresoft has six air bags and electronic stability control.
A brief drive through some connected parking lots by a reporter showed that it runs quietly and handles curves and bumps as well as more costly EVs
While acceleration isn't head-snapping like other EVs, the Seagull is peppy and would have no problems entering a freeway.
BYD would have to modify its cars to meet U.S. safety standards, which are more stringent than in China. Woychowski says Caresoft hasn't done crash tests, but he estimated that would add a couple thousand dollars to the cost.
BYD sells the Seagull, also called the Dolphin Mini, in four Latin American countries for about $21,000. The higher price includes transportation and reflects higher profits possible in less cutthroat markets than China.
BYD told the AP last year it is “still in the process” of deciding whether to sell autos in the U.S. It is weighing factory sites in Mexico for the Mexican market. It has Jim Farley's attention
The company isn’t selling cars in the U.S. largely due to 27.5% tariffs on the sale price of Chinese vehicles when they arrive. Donald Trump slapped on the bulk of the tariff, 25%, when he was president, and it was kept in place under Joe Biden. Trump contends that the rise of EVs backed by Biden will cost U.S. factory jobs, sending the work to China.
The Biden administration has backed legislation and policies to build a U.S. EV manufacturing base.
Some members of Congress are urging Biden to ban imports of Chinese vehicles altogether, including those made in Mexico by Chinese companies that now would come in largely without tariffs.
Ford CEO Jim Farley, has seen Caresoft's work on the Seagull and BYD’s rapid growth, especially in Europe. He's moving to change his company. A small “skunkworks” team is designing a new, small EV to keep costs down and quality high, he said earlier this year.
Chinese makers, Farley said, sold almost no EVs in Europe two years ago, but now have 10% of the EV market. It's likely they'll export around the globe and possibly sell in the U.S.
Ford is preparing to counter that. “Don't take anything for granted,” Farley said. “This CEO doesn't.”
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Post by Tarponator on May 15, 2024 14:53:30 GMT -5
TCP/IP was invented later by the DoD.
But who can even remember what computing was first invented for (WW2) and the first mainframe sold to (Univ of California)? Organic, my ass. More like Mendoza Man's revisionist history. If you ever get to Mobile Al it’s worth stopping in and take a tour of the battleship Alabama. The fire control computer is as big as a school bus. 😳 I think it was built in the late 1930’s. Not sure when the boat was built, but the FCC went in during WW2.
I'll add Mobile & The Alabama to our list -- thanks!
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