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Post by bullfrog on Jul 17, 2024 17:43:25 GMT -5
Thanks for your response. I wonder what Jesus would think of today's churches, as my recollection is that he said nothing of the sort in the gospel. You can actually get an idea in the first few chapters of Revelation. The book starts by Christ relaying a message to John to give to various churches in the Greco-Roman world. Its a mixture of encouragement and chastisement. Different churches had different overall issues. One church may have struggled with sexual immorality. Another with false teachings, and another with general mediocrity where they sort of went through the motions but weren’t really loving Christ with sincerity as they ought. Theologians sometimes interpret those messages as applying to different eras of church history that was future to the point Christ was speaking there. I offer no opinion as to that. The point for this discussion is that He both lovingly but jealously guards His church and will spank us when we need it. And His spankings, although they’re for our good, hurt. I am worried for American Christians right now. I think we’ve made the U.S. our idol. Its not that patriotism is sinful by itself. But it very much is when we hold it above or equal to God. Or when we sell God out for the country There is a difference between how God deals with unbelievers in judgement vs believers in chastisement. God’s judgement is severe and final, but also long suffering because He’s not chomping at the bits to send a bunch of unbelievers to hell. He will do it. But He patiently gives unbelievers some chance to repent (although no one knows when the time is up). While us Christians on the other hand, He’ll deliver a severe spanking to if we abide in sin and don’t heed His warnings. His spanking is not an eternal casting off as it is for an unbeliever. But its still serious. Its better to heed His warnings instead of defying Him. He may very well consider many of us American Christians as being deep in spiritual fornication and idolatry with the politics of the country. This is why I still can’t vote for Trump. I think in a political sense, I could hold my nose for him at this point just to spite the left. But I also think he’s what we call in Christianity a “stumbling block” for Christians who put him on the wrong sort of pedestal. I am not worshipping the man by voting for him. But I think others are, and I can’t enable that. |
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Post by bullfrog on Jul 17, 2024 17:44:06 GMT -5
Thanks for your response. I wonder what Jesus would think of churches, as my recollection is that he said nothing related to church attendance/participation in the gospel.
Did I miss something?
I’ll quote you some Scripture, probably tomorrow. |
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Post by bullfrog on Jul 17, 2024 17:52:16 GMT -5
That raises an interesting philosophical question: Do we have freedom of choice -or- is everything's god's will? I suppose some can and will argue it's "and" not "or", but are these two things not in direct conflict with each other? I’ll also address that later. Free will vs. predestination. Some of it is unknowable, the expression of the mind of an eternal Being with no beginning or end and who exists outside of time to the extent He wants to. To the extent time is a force of the universe instead of just a concept, time didn’t exist until He created it. We can’t begin to even order our thoughts outside of the context of a past, present, and a future. Existence can’t exist in our minds without being so ordered. Yet He exists beyond that framework. He made the framework. So when pondering choice and the future, we have to understand how limited we are to think outside that box. But there is a lot of Scripture that hits on God’s existence outside of time and how some of that relates to His will and choice. |
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Post by Tarponator on Jul 17, 2024 18:15:01 GMT -5
Thanks for your response. I wonder what Jesus would think of today's churches, as my recollection is that he said nothing of the sort in the gospel. You can actually get an idea in the first few chapters of Revelation. The book starts by Christ relaying a message to John to give to various churches in the Greco-Roman world. Its a mixture of encouragement and chastisement. Different churches had different overall issues. One church may have struggled with sexual immorality. Another with false teachings, and another with general mediocrity where they sort of went through the motions but weren’t really loving Christ with sincerity as they ought. Theologians sometimes interpret those messages as applying to different eras of church history that was future to the point Christ was speaking there. I offer no opinion as to that. The point for this discussion is that He both lovingly but jealously guards His church and will spank us when we need it. And His spankings, although they’re for our good, hurt. I am worried for American Christians right now. I think we’ve made the U.S. our idol. Its not that patriotism is sinful by itself. But it very much is when we hold it above or equal to God. Or when we sell God out for the country There is a difference between how God deals with unbelievers in judgement vs believers in chastisement. God’s judgement is severe and final, but also long suffering because He’s not chomping at the bits to send a bunch of unbelievers to hell. He will do it. But He patiently gives unbelievers some chance to repent (although no one knows when the time is up). While us Christians on the other hand, He’ll deliver a severe spanking to if we abide in sin and don’t heed His warnings. His spanking is not an eternal casting off as it is for an unbeliever. But its still serious. Its better to heed His warnings instead of defying Him. He may very well consider many of us American Christians as being deep in spiritual fornication and idolatry with the politics of the country. This is why I still can’t vote for Trump. I think in a political sense, I could hold my nose for him at this point just to spite the left. But I also think he’s what we call in Christianity a “stumbling block” for Christians who put him on the wrong sort of pedestal. I am not worshipping the man by voting for him. But I think others are, and I can’t enable that. Revelations always gave me the willies.
You are not the only one worried, and I appreciate both your conviction and perspective.
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Post by biminitwisted on Jul 17, 2024 18:24:34 GMT -5
Thanks for your response. I wonder what Jesus would think of today's churches, as my recollection is that he said nothing of the sort in the gospel. You can actually get an idea in the first few chapters of Revelation. The book starts by Christ relaying a message to John to give to various churches in the Greco-Roman world. Its a mixture of encouragement and chastisement. Different churches had different overall issues. One church may have struggled with sexual immorality. Another with false teachings, and another with general mediocrity where they sort of went through the motions but weren’t really loving Christ with sincerity as they ought. Theologians sometimes interpret those messages as applying to different eras of church history that was future to the point Christ was speaking there. I offer no opinion as to that. The point for this discussion is that He both lovingly but jealously guards His church and will spank us when we need it. And His spankings, although they’re for our good, hurt. I am worried for American Christians right now. I think we’ve made the U.S. our idol. Its not that patriotism is sinful by itself. But it very much is when we hold it above or equal to God. Or when we sell God out for the country There is a difference between how God deals with unbelievers in judgement vs believers in chastisement. God’s judgement is severe and final, but also long suffering because He’s not chomping at the bits to send a bunch of unbelievers to hell. He will do it. But He patiently gives unbelievers some chance to repent (although no one knows when the time is up). While us Christians on the other hand, He’ll deliver a severe spanking to if we abide in sin and don’t heed His warnings. His spanking is not an eternal casting off as it is for an unbeliever. But its still serious. Its better to heed His warnings instead of defying Him. He may very well consider many of us American Christians as being deep in spiritual fornication and idolatry with the politics of the country. This is why I still can’t vote for Trump. I think in a political sense, I could hold my nose for him at this point just to spite the left. But I also think he’s what we call in Christianity a “stumbling block” for Christians who put him on the wrong sort of pedestal. I am not worshipping the man by voting for him. But I think others are, and I can’t enable that. How is that circumstance different now than it was when you did vote for him? |
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Post by bullfrog on Jul 17, 2024 19:10:55 GMT -5
You can actually get an idea in the first few chapters of Revelation. The book starts by Christ relaying a message to John to give to various churches in the Greco-Roman world. Its a mixture of encouragement and chastisement. Different churches had different overall issues. One church may have struggled with sexual immorality. Another with false teachings, and another with general mediocrity where they sort of went through the motions but weren’t really loving Christ with sincerity as they ought. Theologians sometimes interpret those messages as applying to different eras of church history that was future to the point Christ was speaking there. I offer no opinion as to that. The point for this discussion is that He both lovingly but jealously guards His church and will spank us when we need it. And His spankings, although they’re for our good, hurt. I am worried for American Christians right now. I think we’ve made the U.S. our idol. Its not that patriotism is sinful by itself. But it very much is when we hold it above or equal to God. Or when we sell God out for the country There is a difference between how God deals with unbelievers in judgement vs believers in chastisement. God’s judgement is severe and final, but also long suffering because He’s not chomping at the bits to send a bunch of unbelievers to hell. He will do it. But He patiently gives unbelievers some chance to repent (although no one knows when the time is up). While us Christians on the other hand, He’ll deliver a severe spanking to if we abide in sin and don’t heed His warnings. His spanking is not an eternal casting off as it is for an unbeliever. But its still serious. Its better to heed His warnings instead of defying Him. He may very well consider many of us American Christians as being deep in spiritual fornication and idolatry with the politics of the country. This is why I still can’t vote for Trump. I think in a political sense, I could hold my nose for him at this point just to spite the left. But I also think he’s what we call in Christianity a “stumbling block” for Christians who put him on the wrong sort of pedestal. I am not worshipping the man by voting for him. But I think others are, and I can’t enable that. How is that circumstance different now than it was when you did vote for him? His cult has continuously grown since 2015-2016 and at the beginning he wasn’t often presented in messianic or Christian terms. Back then he was just a brute political brawler who would close the border and fight China. A political bouncer at the bar we call Washington. He wasn’t regarded as being by and for evangelicals. We’re creeping up to nearly 10 years now that he’s been growing his influence among evangelicals. There were early warning signs. He took the TBN crowd of TV preachers into his fold as his spiritual advisors in his administration, such as Paula White. Mainstream evangelicals consider them heretics. Then Christian Nationalism subsequently appeared. There are 2 strains; a fakey MTG/TBN-type movement, which is the most popular type, and a more theologically principled (but still incorrect IMO) movement, which is small but growing. I consider the former a heresy, the latter to simply be an incorrect view of Scripture that’s not heresy, but the Trump train is driving them both into the main-stream and that may end up being very, very, bad for everyone. I’ll have to explain more later. Pulling an all nighter. |
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Post by meateater on Jul 18, 2024 14:34:43 GMT -5
Thank you for your response. I still don’t believe that going to church is necessary as you have stated, trust me im no example of a good christian but i enjoy church, bout twice a month. i also meet twice a month with a group of christian men, mostly vets that fish and hunt. the little interaction i have around other christians keeps me borderline grounded. bad company corrupts good morals, thats what franklin graham told me to my face 29 years ago on a security job i was working for one of his outreaches, he asked what church i belonged to and i gave him some of the same reasons that you have said. fellowship with other believers is very important he told me back then and ive always remembered that so i continue to try cause im very skeptical of all people. religious or not. |
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Post by bullfrog on Jul 18, 2024 21:19:03 GMT -5
I’ll follow up over the weekend. I worked from about 7:30am yesterday morning through 3pm this afternoon, only stopping to post here, use the bathroom, eat, shower, and change into my courtroom attire. No sleep until this evening. Gonna crash tonight.
I can’t do it like I could in my 30s. I usually did jury trials on 3 or less hours or sleep. I still do the all nighters but I have to do them days in advance, then get a good night’s sleep before going into trial.
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Post by Tarponator on Jul 19, 2024 0:06:02 GMT -5
Hope things went well in the courtroom this week.
I know what you mean about pulling all-nighters. They don't get any easier, that's for sure.
Relax!
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Post by Captj on Jul 19, 2024 5:58:42 GMT -5
So, who's the "real" believer here. Is it the Muslim, Jew, Protestant, Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, or is it the person who has goodness in their heart and practices? One thing it isn't is Trump in his efforts to monetize a bible for his own purposes. It's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning.
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Post by bullfrog on Jul 20, 2024 21:50:08 GMT -5
Thanks for your response. I wonder what Jesus would think of churches, as my recollection is that he said nothing related to church attendance/participation in the gospel. Did I miss something?
I’ll quote you some Scripture, probably tomorrow. I'm going to break the analysis down between some direct quotes from Jesus alone. I'll bold the Scripture then add my commentary. One factor to consider is that every time Jesus references Christians where there are 2 or more being addressed, he's referring to the church. Another factor is that if Jesus really is the Son of God as asserted in Christianity, then quotes from the rest of the New Testament are no less valid than the direct quotes from Christ alone, because the entire New Testament is a quote from Christ to the extent that it was written by His Holy Spirit and it all carries the same weight as the red-letter words of Jesus in the Gospels. If you don't believe the rest of the New Testament, there's no reason to believe the Gospels either, as the Gospels validate the rest of the New Testament and visa versa. Matthew 18: 15-20
“Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that ON THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY MATTER MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”These first verses refer to a process called "church discipline" by which a Christian that's in a sin they won't repent from is admonished several times, then put out of the fellowship of the church until they repent. These verses reference and presume the existence of the church, that Christians are a part of the church's fellowship, and that the Christians are subject to the authorities of the church. In other words, church attendance in the form of Christians meeting together as a group and being subject to some sort of leadership within that group is presumed for these verses to make sense. The term we translate as "church" is used here directly out of Jesus' mouth. It translates in the original Greek as roughly as "the people called out of the world" and this is the word/phrase the New Testament is using whenever you see "church" translated into English. Our English word "church" comes from a different Greek word meaning "belonging to Christ." The latter verses refer to a concept that whenever 2 or more Christians gather together in Christ's name, He's there within the group. We believe that's literal, that He's supernaturally with any group of real Christians that gather together in His name. That's a foundational concept of the church. He's supernaturally with and in all meetings of sincere Christians who gather in His name. Understanding the original term/phrase for "church" is important because throughout the gospels and the wider New Testament, Christians are constantly defined as the people called out of the world. The notion when used to define the church emphasizes that "church" is a group of people. We're commanded to meet with each other. That's what it means to have church,. Early Christians usually met in homes. It was groups of Christians, subject to spiritual leadership, meeting together to pray, sing hymns, and hear the preaching of Scripture. Matthew 16:17-19
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”Here Jesus refers to the church as an institution and its spiritual authority. Catholics use this as a proof text for the creation of the office of Pope. Protestants obviously do not believe that's what these verses reference. But both sides agree that there is spiritual leadership established within the church within these verses. We Protestants just don't believe that Peter was established as the first Pope in these verses or that the office of Pope was created to be the final authority of all matters within the church. All of John Chapters 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17.I'm not going to quote these because it's too long, but it's a long dissertation of Jesus during the Last Supper in which He defines the difference between the non-believing world and believing Christians called to follow Him out of the world. He's defining the church as a spiritual fellowship of humans that believe in Him. He constantly refers to His desire that believers in Him have content fellowship with each other. There's no such thing as a Christian existing as a singular, solitary, being. We're a part of a larger spiritual organism. Jesus in these verses describes His desire that Christians be together and love one another, and understand that Christians are fundamentally different beings that non-Christians, and that Christ and His Father literally course through us. Remember, I used the Borg as an example, if you know Trek. We're Borg. Borg can't be alone. Borg can't function when cut off from the collective. Christians are a spiritual collective, Christ is both the Queen and the root of our hive mind, and His Spirit living in us is the sub-space signal that keeps us all plugged in with Him and each other. If you don't know Star Trek, well sorry. That's the best non-spiritual analogy, or parable if you will, I know to use. Revelation 2 and 3
Again, I'm not going to quote these verse by verse. They obviously presume the existence of various churches as actual groups of Christians who meet together. So all of these verses above purport to be direct quotes from Christ, and it's clear that the church is a supernatural fellowship of Christians that Christ wills to be in connection with each other. In the entire New Testament, the Greek term we translate as "church" is referenced about 199 times thereabout, and when you look up all of those references, its clear that Christians are commanded to meet together to worship God, pray, and be subject to the spiritual leadership of church leaders. I would offer these versus from 1 John, one of the books of the New Testament, written by the same John who wrote the gospel of John. It's relevant to our discussion as to what a "real Christian" is. It's basically a checklist a person can go down to see if their fruits are consistent with being a sincere Christian or not. If a person's life doesn't match what's said here, they need to check their faith to see what it is they really believe. Love of the church as the body of believing Christians is one of the criteria. I'm probably going to end up quoting most of the first chapters and bold parts that are directly relevant to church as defined by fellowship with other Christians, but there's a lot more here relevant to how a person can know if they're a real Christian or not. Note that when these verses refer to someone's "brothers and sisters," it's referring to fellow Christians, not someone's physical siblings. |
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Post by bullfrog on Jul 20, 2024 22:43:18 GMT -5
That raises an interesting philosophical question: Do we have freedom of choice -or- is everything's god's will? I suppose some can and will argue it's "and" not "or", but are these two things not in direct conflict with each other? Now... how deep down this rabbit hole do you want to go and it what format? I can throw a lot of scripture at you. Some of it is very in depth and profound. For instance, Romans chapters 9-11 goes into a very in-depth dissertation on free-will vs predestination. It discusses the Pharaoh of the Exodus from the Old Testament having his heart "hardened" by God so that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go from slavery, for the reason that God could use those refusals to demonstrate His power. In other words, Pharaoh was given a choice to obey God, but God didn't allow Him to obey, for the reason that God could punish Him in dramatic fashion. The objection is then raised that isn't fair, to which the theological response given in the discussion is that "God owns everyone, He can do what He wants with them in the same way a potter owns the pottery he creates." So one one hand, it shoots down the notion that if God predestines our choices, that's not fair. Well God is the arbiter of what's fair, and it's fair for Him to do what He will with His creation. And yet those verses go on to discuss Israel's general rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. It too was foreordained by God so that Gentiles would be brought into God's fellowship in Israel's stead, and God makes the promise here that towards the end of days, God will cause those Jews still alive at that time to come to believe in Christ. So those verses seem to support predestination. And yet even then throughout those verses is language presented to the Christian reader consistent with free-will choice, both admonishing the reader to not have a hard heart like the unbelieving Jews and noting that God is still holding His hands out to Israel should they choose to know Him again, as if its their choice. Elsewhere in the New Testament, very free-will type statements are made. For example, in 1 Timothy 2: First of all, then, I urge that requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made in behalf of all people, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed as a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.and again here in 2 Peter 3: But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
Basically saying that God hasn't ended it all yet because He's wanting everyone to have the chance to be saved. Well, if He's predestining everyone, how does that jive with Him not being willing for any to perish?Here's one of my favorites:
Acts 17: 22-31 Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His descendants.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the descendants of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by human skill and thought. 30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead.”Note the middle verses about God seeing who would seek Him, literally using the Greek verb for grouping around in the dark. He's actually there watching to see if humans will feel around for Him in the spiritual darkness, and He isn't actually far in the dark, He's there to make Himself available to be found. He is just watching to see who cares enough to reach. There's this verse out of Romans (Romans 8: 28-30), where some theologians believe it ties predestination and free will together: And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
In context of the wider Bible, there's lots of versus that say God knew all Christians and ordained our salvation before the beginning of the world. So if there is an order we can comprehend that melds both concepts, it would be something like this: 1. God exists outside of time. He knew in advance of creating the world who would choose Him when given the choice. 2. Those He foreknew as choosing Him, He locked us in to that choice through predestination. 3. We humans are confined to time. Yes, we have a choice, God knew what the choice would be in advance. But we do not, and the choice still has to be presented and we still have to respond. But somewhere in all of that is God operating. There's an interesting verse that says that none of us would choose God when left to our own devices. The implication is that God actually causes some of us to believe and leaves the rest to their own free-will devices, which means none of them would choose God. My belief is that both free-will and predestination are in operation without contradiction, and it is completely beyond the human mind to comprehend it. Just as it's beyond our mind to understand that God is one being and 3 beings at the same time. He's completely one and completely three at the same time. When Moses in the Old Testament says "The LORD our God is one God," the literal translation is "Yaweh our Gods is one." Gods in the plural. The notion God existing in some sort of strange plural sense, and being entirely one God and not several, has always been present. It is what it is. Just as God's proper name for himself, Yaweh, is Him actually saying "I Am What I Am." That's His proper name that He gave to Himself. It's like He's shrugging His shoulders when evaluating His own nature and deciding that the best way He can define Himself is "I Am What I Am." He doesn't make sense on so many levels to us, but on the other hand, it makes perfect sense that such a non-lineral Being wouldn't make sense. So I think predestination vs free-will is about as unknowable as the Trinity. It just is, as revealed by God. |
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Post by walkerdog on Jul 21, 2024 9:29:13 GMT -5
God’s will is not at all inconsistent with our free will.
That we have free will is his will. The only inconsistency with his will is how we sometimes choose to use it.
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Post by bridgeman213 on Jul 21, 2024 18:00:40 GMT -5
That raises an interesting philosophical question: Do we have freedom of choice -or- is everything's god's will? I suppose some can and will argue it's "and" not "or", but are these two things not in direct conflict with each other? Now... how deep down this rabbit hole do you want to go and it what format? I can throw a lot of scripture at you. Some of it is very in depth and profound. For instance, Romans chapters 9-11 goes into a very in-depth dissertation on free-will vs predestination. It discusses the Pharaoh of the Exodus from the Old Testament having his heart "hardened" by God so that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go from slavery, for the reason that God could use those refusals to demonstrate His power. In other words, Pharaoh was given a choice to obey God, but God didn't allow Him to obey, for the reason that God could punish Him in dramatic fashion. The objection is then raised that isn't fair, to which the theological response given in the discussion is that "God owns everyone, He can do what He wants with them in the same way a potter owns the pottery he creates." So one one hand, it shoots down the notion that if God predestines our choices, that's not fair. Well God is the arbiter of what's fair, and it's fair for Him to do what He will with His creation. And yet those verses go on to discuss Israel's general rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. It too was foreordained by God so that Gentiles would be brought into God's fellowship in Israel's stead, and God makes the promise here that towards the end of days, God will cause those Jews still alive at that time to come to believe in Christ. So those verses seem to support predestination. And yet even then throughout those verses is language presented to the Christian reader consistent with free-will choice, both admonishing the reader to not have a hard heart like the unbelieving Jews and noting that God is still holding His hands out to Israel should they choose to know Him again, as if its their choice. Elsewhere in the New Testament, very free-will type statements are made. For example, in 1 Timothy 2: First of all, then, I urge that requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made in behalf of all people, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed as a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.and again here in 2 Peter 3: But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
Basically saying that God hasn't ended it all yet because He's wanting everyone to have the chance to be saved. Well, if He's predestining everyone, how does that jive with Him not being willing for any to perish?Here's one of my favorites:
Acts 17: 22-31 Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His descendants.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the descendants of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by human skill and thought. 30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead.”Note the middle verses about God seeing who would seek Him, literally using the Greek verb for grouping around in the dark. He's actually there watching to see if humans will feel around for Him in the spiritual darkness, and He isn't actually far in the dark, He's there to make Himself available to be found. He is just watching to see who cares enough to reach. There's this verse out of Romans (Romans 8: 28-30), where some theologians believe it ties predestination and free will together: And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
In context of the wider Bible, there's lots of versus that say God knew all Christians and ordained our salvation before the beginning of the world. So if there is an order we can comprehend that melds both concepts, it would be something like this: 1. God exists outside of time. He knew in advance of creating the world who would choose Him when given the choice. 2. Those He foreknew as choosing Him, He locked us in to that choice through predestination. 3. We humans are confined to time. Yes, we have a choice, God knew what the choice would be in advance. But we do not, and the choice still has to be presented and we still have to respond. But somewhere in all of that is God operating. There's an interesting verse that says that none of us would choose God when left to our own devices. The implication is that God actually causes some of us to believe and leaves the rest to their own free-will devices, which means none of them would choose God. My belief is that both free-will and predestination are in operation without contradiction, and it is completely beyond the human mind to comprehend it. Just as it's beyond our mind to understand that God is one being and 3 beings at the same time. He's completely one and completely three at the same time. When Moses in the Old Testament says "The LORD our God is one God," the literal translation is "Yaweh our Gods is one." Gods in the plural. The notion God existing in some sort of strange plural sense, and being entirely one God and not several, has always been present. It is what it is. Just as God's proper name for himself, Yaweh, is Him actually saying "I Am What I Am." That's His proper name that He gave to Himself. It's like He's shrugging His shoulders when evaluating His own nature and deciding that the best way He can define Himself is "I Am What I Am." He doesn't make sense on so many levels to us, but on the other hand, it makes perfect sense that such a non-lineral Being wouldn't make sense. So I think predestination vs free-will is about as unknowable as the Trinity. It just is, as revealed by God. I'm sure I'd enjoy being your friend.. hou have all if your cookies |
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Post by tonyroma on Jul 21, 2024 21:48:32 GMT -5
Now... how deep down this rabbit hole do you want to go and it what format? I can throw a lot of scripture at you. Some of it is very in depth and profound. For instance, Romans chapters 9-11 goes into a very in-depth dissertation on free-will vs predestination. It discusses the Pharaoh of the Exodus from the Old Testament having his heart "hardened" by God so that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go from slavery, for the reason that God could use those refusals to demonstrate His power. In other words, Pharaoh was given a choice to obey God, but God didn't allow Him to obey, for the reason that God could punish Him in dramatic fashion. The objection is then raised that isn't fair, to which the theological response given in the discussion is that "God owns everyone, He can do what He wants with them in the same way a potter owns the pottery he creates." So one one hand, it shoots down the notion that if God predestines our choices, that's not fair. Well God is the arbiter of what's fair, and it's fair for Him to do what He will with His creation. And yet those verses go on to discuss Israel's general rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. It too was foreordained by God so that Gentiles would be brought into God's fellowship in Israel's stead, and God makes the promise here that towards the end of days, God will cause those Jews still alive at that time to come to believe in Christ. So those verses seem to support predestination. And yet even then throughout those verses is language presented to the Christian reader consistent with free-will choice, both admonishing the reader to not have a hard heart like the unbelieving Jews and noting that God is still holding His hands out to Israel should they choose to know Him again, as if its their choice. Elsewhere in the New Testament, very free-will type statements are made. For example, in 1 Timothy 2: First of all, then, I urge that requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made in behalf of all people, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed as a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.and again here in 2 Peter 3: But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
Basically saying that God hasn't ended it all yet because He's wanting everyone to have the chance to be saved. Well, if He's predestining everyone, how does that jive with Him not being willing for any to perish?Here's one of my favorites:
Acts 17: 22-31 Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His descendants.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the descendants of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by human skill and thought. 30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead.”Note the middle verses about God seeing who would seek Him, literally using the Greek verb for grouping around in the dark. He's actually there watching to see if humans will feel around for Him in the spiritual darkness, and He isn't actually far in the dark, He's there to make Himself available to be found. He is just watching to see who cares enough to reach. There's this verse out of Romans (Romans 8: 28-30), where some theologians believe it ties predestination and free will together: And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
In context of the wider Bible, there's lots of versus that say God knew all Christians and ordained our salvation before the beginning of the world. So if there is an order we can comprehend that melds both concepts, it would be something like this: 1. God exists outside of time. He knew in advance of creating the world who would choose Him when given the choice. 2. Those He foreknew as choosing Him, He locked us in to that choice through predestination. 3. We humans are confined to time. Yes, we have a choice, God knew what the choice would be in advance. But we do not, and the choice still has to be presented and we still have to respond. But somewhere in all of that is God operating. There's an interesting verse that says that none of us would choose God when left to our own devices. The implication is that God actually causes some of us to believe and leaves the rest to their own free-will devices, which means none of them would choose God. My belief is that both free-will and predestination are in operation without contradiction, and it is completely beyond the human mind to comprehend it. Just as it's beyond our mind to understand that God is one being and 3 beings at the same time. He's completely one and completely three at the same time. When Moses in the Old Testament says "The LORD our God is one God," the literal translation is "Yaweh our Gods is one." Gods in the plural. The notion God existing in some sort of strange plural sense, and being entirely one God and not several, has always been present. It is what it is. Just as God's proper name for himself, Yaweh, is Him actually saying "I Am What I Am." That's His proper name that He gave to Himself. It's like He's shrugging His shoulders when evaluating His own nature and deciding that the best way He can define Himself is "I Am What I Am." He doesn't make sense on so many levels to us, but on the other hand, it makes perfect sense that such a non-lineral Being wouldn't make sense. So I think predestination vs free-will is about as unknowable as the Trinity. It just is, as revealed by God. I'm sure I'd enjoy being your friend.. hou have all if your cookies Just in case😉 |
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