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Post by tonyroma on Jul 22, 2024 14:00:40 GMT -5
Sorry guys had to go to Europe on business. Thanks for all the tips. Yes i was on a Lykes lease but after 18 years and no land prep no mowing no burning no nothing the bucks are getting smaller and smaller. Plus they went from 20 members to 26 and the cost remained the same. Yes its a big propety but 20 of them run buggies and dawgs it does not take long to wear the place down. Add to that the cost is insane. I am going to hunt with a friend in Alachua county yes the drive sucks so I will go every 3 weeks or so and stay longer. I love the idea of hunting in cooler weather and DRY land. thanks again for all the advice Some quality deer in Alachua county, soils are richer than the surrounding areas.
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Post by walkerdog on Jul 22, 2024 19:14:02 GMT -5
No land management and smaller bucks? Reality is quite a bit different than the picture you’ve painted, if you use actual data to inform your opinion. Best wishes in Alachua. Hope your feet stay drier and your grapes aren’t quite so sour up there! Why do you always disparage the field observations of people that have been hunting on your employers property for decades longer than you have? Conduct an email survey of hunter observations from the long term members. Nearly everyone I have talked to in the last several years has felt populations, quality, and overall satisfaction are going downhill but you always disagree adamantly.
I do not think that most of it is the biologist's fault.
Cameras and especially cell cameras are causing high grading with the best 3 and 4 year olds being killed on a more regular basis by the "trophy" hunters. Being able to monitor several feeders on your phone and switch locations when the "trophy" is there is not great for targeted buck survival. No one on my lease will shoot the crappy 80-90 4+year old bucks out of fear of loosing their buck tags and/or getting kicked off if the deer doesn't age what they thought it would. Making a mistake is too costly. So these smaller deer while legal under the biologists rules, are almost always let go to continue breeding.
Overwhelming numbers of contractors have been in the woods for last several years. Most of these guys are probably not poachers, but there are a few that certainly are. There are no longer 2-3 year old 8 points standing on the side of the road every day, and there has not been for a few years. Assuming that guys, with unsupervised full access to leases they can not afford, are not shooting bucks and gobblers is a fallacy. Many people raised in the woods can bone out a deer in a few minutes. Many also express a disdain for the "rich" lease members, so there is certainly no respect.
Predator populations in south Florida are the highest they have been in a century. Likely higher than ever in history, with the coyotes.
It all adds up.
I’m not disparaging Eddie at all. He’s a likable guy, despite the fact I don’t share most of his views on managing deer or land. Data provides an objective view of reality, rather than the subjective perspective that anecdotal evidence usually does. I prefer to follow it rather than the feeling of myself or others. I spoke with your leaseholder this past weekend about what I believe is most of the issue with the stirred up game in the area. His observations are different than what you’ve suggested but they match pretty well with what we’ve been seeing. I’m sure he’d be glad to fill you in on that, if you ask him.
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Post by swampdog on Jul 23, 2024 11:20:23 GMT -5
Anecdotal information is very subjective. It only goes as far as the people observing. Some is very accurate and verified through scientific evidence. For example we reported a geographical area that experienced late ruts that was totally missed by the WMA season. After mentioning this and having a degree of credibility, the area biologists were brought in and totally supported our anecdotal reporting. I’m regularly quizzed, like most of you on what I’m observing (poults and fawns mostly) on the two WMAs and my area county of residence. Even biologists will solicit survey (anecdotal) responses for the observations of specific species.
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sgp
New Member
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Post by sgp on Jul 24, 2024 10:19:19 GMT -5
I’m not disparaging Eddie at all. He’s a likable guy, despite the fact I don’t share most of his views on managing deer or land. Data provides an objective view of reality, rather than the subjective perspective that anecdotal evidence usually does. I prefer to follow it rather than the feeling of myself or others. I spoke with your leaseholder this past weekend about what I believe is most of the issue with the stirred up game in the area. His observations are different than what you’ve suggested but they match pretty well with what we’ve been seeing. I’m sure he’d be glad to fill you in on that, if you ask him.
So again you disagree with my observations and Eddie's(who is 20 miles away), then indicate that you have answers, but do not provide even a slight hint as to what you think the issues are. I would love to hear them from you, not second hand, as the relaying person has their own subjective views that may distort your intended data based messages. I agree with "stirred up game" but much of it is stirred up in someones frying pan.
In addition to my other observations I will add the following:
I know that in the last 9 years there has been a dramatically increased harvest at N 6 m, T pens, N J marsh, S J marsh, and F bee which had a large impact but it is not just 4+ yo bucks missing. Little can be done about that unless they are actually not following your rules. What percentage of their yearly buck harvest is occurring prior to the traditional gun opener (October 15th)? I am wondering how big of an affect the "any weapon all season" option has had at the neighbors who I know are participating.
Indian's poaching has been a big excuse, but they do not kill many bucks other than those they can easily shoot off their truck/buggy with a light. Yes, Indians poach hogs with dogs frequently, but what does that really hurt considering someone is authorized to trap thousands for free. Many within 50 yards of feeders that I spend a thousand dollars each per year to keep filled. I am sure that the deer love guys in a truck/trailer visiting my feeders to check hog traps everyday. I do not love it.
B Island seems have dramatically increased hunting pressure over the past couple years. Feeders /stands are visible on the boundary now, and hunters lights are now seen frequently before daylight across the fence, along with hearing gunshots. Rules have evidently changed over there.
We also have the same issues as Eddie caused by the recent huge increases in lease rates. In less than 10 years this has caused member numbers to increase by 40%, along with a 40% price increase, and loss of about 1500 acres. The price was fairly stable for many years, but large yearly increases are apparently the new normal. That is defiantly your department's handiwork. Long term Deseret members warned this would be coming here 6-7 years ago. At some point very soon the price/value ratio becomes unreasonable, and it has already gotten there for many including Eddie. Look at the old leasing data from 2008-2015 and see what happened just due to the economy. Tens of thousands of acres went unleased for several years, and that was with stable, reasonable lease prices.
People are having the same complaints 15-20 miles away, so it sure doesn't seem isolated to a specific corner of the property.
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Post by walkerdog on Jul 24, 2024 18:06:31 GMT -5
I’m not disparaging Eddie at all. He’s a likable guy, despite the fact I don’t share most of his views on managing deer or land. Data provides an objective view of reality, rather than the subjective perspective that anecdotal evidence usually does. I prefer to follow it rather than the feeling of myself or others. I spoke with your leaseholder this past weekend about what I believe is most of the issue with the stirred up game in the area. His observations are different than what you’ve suggested but they match pretty well with what we’ve been seeing. I’m sure he’d be glad to fill you in on that, if you ask him.
So again you disagree with my observations and Eddie's(who is 20 miles away), then indicate that you have answers, but do not provide even a slight hint as to what you think the issues are. I would love to hear them from you, not second hand, as the relaying person has their own subjective views that may distort your intended data based messages. I agree with "stirred up game" but much of it is stirred up in someones frying pan.
In addition to my other observations I will add the following:
I know that in the last 9 years there has been a dramatically increased harvest at N 6 m, T pens, N J marsh, S J marsh, and F bee which had a large impact but it is not just 4+ yo bucks missing. Little can be done about that unless they are actually not following your rules. What percentage of their yearly buck harvest is occurring prior to the traditional gun opener (October 15th)? I am wondering how big of an affect the "any weapon all season" option has had at the neighbors who I know are participating.
Indian's poaching has been a big excuse, but they do not kill many bucks other than those they can easily shoot off their truck/buggy with a light. Yes, Indians poach hogs with dogs frequently, but what does that really hurt considering someone is authorized to trap thousands for free. Many within 50 yards of feeders that I spend a thousand dollars each per year to keep filled. I am sure that the deer love guys in a truck/trailer visiting my feeders to check hog traps everyday. I do not love it.
B Island seems have dramatically increased hunting pressure over the past couple years. Feeders /stands are visible on the boundary now, and hunters lights are now seen frequently before daylight across the fence, along with hearing gunshots. Rules have evidently changed over there.
We also have the same issues as Eddie caused by the recent huge increases in lease rates. In less than 10 years this has caused member numbers to increase by 40%, along with a 40% price increase, and loss of about 1500 acres. The price was fairly stable for many years, but large yearly increases are apparently the new normal. That is defiantly your department's handiwork. Long term Deseret members warned this would be coming here 6-7 years ago. At some point very soon the price/value ratio becomes unreasonable, and it has already gotten there for many including Eddie. Look at the old leasing data from 2008-2015 and see what happened just due to the economy. Tens of thousands of acres went unleased for several years, and that was with stable, reasonable lease prices.
People are having the same complaints 15-20 miles away, so it sure doesn't seem isolated to a specific corner of the property.
I’m sorry if you take my disagreement on things that aren’t borne out by numbers that we track as disparaging. I don’t see it as that and certainly don’t intend it to be taken as such. You’re welcome to give me a call anytime you’d like to. If you don’t have my number, your leaseholder does. I don’t mind them sharing it with you. I’m happy to discuss any concerns you’d like to and share the data with you that shows why I believe differently.
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Post by outdoorsfl on Jul 24, 2024 19:08:20 GMT -5
walkerdog and sgp — The only way to settle y’all’s difference of opinions is to invite a neutral third party to come hunt the land for a season….seeing as no one has yet volunteered, I accept your forthcoming invitation and await receipt of further details.
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Post by JS84 on Jul 25, 2024 8:07:27 GMT -5
or at least hunt together. That way you both largely have the same physical observations
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Post by anumber1 on Jul 25, 2024 15:18:06 GMT -5
Or a jello wrestling match
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sgp
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by sgp on Jul 26, 2024 8:40:42 GMT -5
I agree with leaving it alone, as it is a waste of time. It is just frustrating to have first hand observations consistently disregarded with zero explanation, as he is the new boss man with complete control of hunting on 20+ different large leases at a very large ranch, not a fellow lease member. Fairly certain that third party observation is not welcome in any way as first hand observations are not considered relevant. The property was spectacular 10 years years ago, but has consistently declined since. Data for his recent tenure apparently does not show that decline. However I think that recent data is heavily influenced by increased harvest reporting that came about due to much stricter state and private reporting requirements and penalties. The data doesn't reflect what was never reported in the past.
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Post by walkerdog on Jul 27, 2024 8:03:32 GMT -5
Comments being heard and taken in context is not the same as disregarding. At least not in my mind. The offer always stands, if you care to take it.
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Post by gator4ever on Aug 13, 2024 9:42:03 GMT -5
I agree with leaving it alone, as it is a waste of time. It is just frustrating to have first hand observations consistently disregarded with zero explanation, as he is the new boss man with complete control of hunting on 20+ different large leases at a very large ranch, not a fellow lease member. Fairly certain that third party observation is not welcome in any way as first hand observations are not considered relevant. The property was spectacular 10 years years ago, but has consistently declined since. Data for his recent tenure apparently does not show that decline. However I think that recent data is heavily influenced by increased harvest reporting that came about due to much stricter state and private reporting requirements and penalties. The data doesn't reflect what was never reported in the past. Let me explain why you are dead on as far as decline in the deer herd: I was on my lease for 19 years and that I know of there has been no burning done on it for at lease 25+ years. For the past 5 years I had witnessed a steady decline in the quality and quanity of the deer herd. When I decent buck is shot it is near the property line that borders cow pastures that are mowed providing fresh nutritous growth. Whenever a parcel was clearcut the deer would be all over it until the growth matured and lost its nutritional value. Until this trend is changed the decline will continue. Why do you think that Deseret, Rollins and all the private ranches in the state have big bucks? Simple buring, mowing and fertilization. Its all about the food.
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