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Post by conchydong on May 25, 2024 17:01:30 GMT -5
My dog gets Purina Pro Plan and no table scraps. She stays at 70lbs and the vet says she is healthy and that is all that matters. I don’t know nothing about what is best for dogs but I fed mine a mixture of table scraps mixed in with some dry dog food and they all lived to 14 years or more. They even ate a lot of rice with their food as it is a common food in our household.
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Post by stc1993 on May 25, 2024 19:33:01 GMT -5
My dog gets Purina Pro Plan and no table scraps. She stays at 70lbs and the vet says she is healthy and that is all that matters. I don’t know nothing about what is best for dogs but I fed mine a mixture of table scraps mixed in with some dry dog food and they all lived to 14 years or more. They even ate a lot of rice with their food as it is a common food in our household. Our Maltipoo likes rice and cheddar cheese.
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Post by johnnybandit on May 25, 2024 21:09:45 GMT -5
I know you consider dogs as omnivores........ But if I slapped a coyote, Wolf, Pariah dog (dingoes etc) and domestic dog.... intestinal tracts on a table... Similar sized animals.... say 45 pound animals to keep it fair.... You could not tell the difference... Nor could. Nor could a biologist or a Vet... Because the digestive tracts all look exactly the same... because They are all carnivores..... It would take DNA testing to figure out who is who....
I know you like to Both be right.... And experiment... .you have some puppies on the ground...pr had some... did you keep one.... why not try one my way? I know you want to be right.... But I have been feeding this this way for over 30 years.... So I know I am right.
There are scientifically observable differences between dog and wolf digestive systems that shows dogs are better suited to digest human-grown plant material: www.science.org/content/article/diet-shaped-dog-domesticationbmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-021-02815-yBoth dog genetics and gut bacteria have been evolved by man’s selection to digest starch. There’s probably a lot of variation of diet adaptations between specific breeds of dogs depending on what their diets have been over the last few hundred years. I would expect dogs from the far north to be more meat-focused and dogs from temperate regions with a lot of farming to be more starch oriented. I want my dogs to survive and thrive on whatever I can feed them. Meat scraps, eggs, potatoes, whatever I can throw out for them they need to be able to live off of, because they day may come where that’s all I can offer. I view them through the same survivalist lens I see my other livestock. I don’t want them to specialize on a particular food. Raw meat can only practically offered on occasion in a farm setting. I do notice that raw meat lasts them a lot longer. When I let them gorge on meat scraps after butchering a large animal, I won’t feed them anything for about a week or however long it takes for the fullness or bloat in their bellies to go away. Once they get their shape back, I return them to a staple kibble diet supplemented with table scraps and what they hunt in the woods.
Observable.... but not with the naked eye.
Just because you feed one way now.... does not mean you cannot change if you have to. Dogs are nothing if not adaptable....
My motives are feeding the way I do are for optimum health of the dog.....skeletal, muscle, teeth coat, internally and longevity.... And what I do has worked very well for me..... It is highly adaptable.... And frankly it does not have to be expensive to do... In fact with friends, etc. I get a LOT of food free.... I have five or six people that keep and bring me all the jack crevalle and blue runners they catch while targeting other species.... I also have people bring me deer parts, feral hog parts. etc...
I feed a fair amount of saltwater fish. I do not feed any freshwater fish....
I would have to be pretty broke to not be able to provide my dogs with this diet
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Post by bullfrog on May 25, 2024 21:47:55 GMT -5
There are scientifically observable differences between dog and wolf digestive systems that shows dogs are better suited to digest human-grown plant material: www.science.org/content/article/diet-shaped-dog-domesticationbmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-021-02815-yBoth dog genetics and gut bacteria have been evolved by man’s selection to digest starch. There’s probably a lot of variation of diet adaptations between specific breeds of dogs depending on what their diets have been over the last few hundred years. I would expect dogs from the far north to be more meat-focused and dogs from temperate regions with a lot of farming to be more starch oriented. I want my dogs to survive and thrive on whatever I can feed them. Meat scraps, eggs, potatoes, whatever I can throw out for them they need to be able to live off of, because they day may come where that’s all I can offer. I view them through the same survivalist lens I see my other livestock. I don’t want them to specialize on a particular food. Raw meat can only practically offered on occasion in a farm setting. I do notice that raw meat lasts them a lot longer. When I let them gorge on meat scraps after butchering a large animal, I won’t feed them anything for about a week or however long it takes for the fullness or bloat in their bellies to go away. Once they get their shape back, I return them to a staple kibble diet supplemented with table scraps and what they hunt in the woods.
Observable.... but not with the naked eye.
Just because you feed one way now.... does not mean you cannot change if you have to. Dogs are nothing if not adaptable....
My motives are feeding the way I do are for optimum health of the dog.....skeletal, muscle, teeth coat, internally and longevity.... And what I do has worked very well for me..... It is highly adaptable.... And frankly it does not have to be expensive to do... In fact with friends, etc. I get a LOT of food free.... I have five or six people that keep and bring me all the jack crevalle and blue runners they catch while targeting other species.... I also have people bring me deer parts, feral hog parts. etc...
I feed a fair amount of saltwater fish. I do not feed any freshwater fish....
I would have to be pretty broke to not be able to provide my dogs with this diet
Why do you not feed freshwater? Is it the same reason a person can’t safely make raw sushi or sashimi out of freshwater?
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Post by johnnybandit on May 26, 2024 0:55:07 GMT -5
Observable.... but not with the naked eye.
Just because you feed one way now.... does not mean you cannot change if you have to. Dogs are nothing if not adaptable....
My motives are feeding the way I do are for optimum health of the dog.....skeletal, muscle, teeth coat, internally and longevity.... And what I do has worked very well for me..... It is highly adaptable.... And frankly it does not have to be expensive to do... In fact with friends, etc. I get a LOT of food free.... I have five or six people that keep and bring me all the jack crevalle and blue runners they catch while targeting other species.... I also have people bring me deer parts, feral hog parts. etc...
I feed a fair amount of saltwater fish. I do not feed any freshwater fish....
I would have to be pretty broke to not be able to provide my dogs with this diet
Why do you not feed freshwater? Is it the same reason a person can’t safely make raw sushi or sashimi out of freshwater? I have never looked up humans eating raw freshwater fish...
But I know that freshwater fish can carry parasites be vector species.... for parasites and diseases from raccoons, coyotes, beavers etc that can be fatal to domestic dogs..
It is a non issue... with saltwater fish...
As far as I am concerned.... Two or three Blue Runners.... Depending on the size of the fish and the size of the dog.... is the most perfect meal for a dog...
By the way..... You are doing something VERY right..... Gorging and fasting.... After a huge meal.... Canines benefit from gorging.....
Frankly.... No one should be feeding their dog... Any more than one meal a day... (except for small breeds)
But anyone..... with a dog that weighs more then 25-30 pounds a week.... should not be feeding your dogs more than four to five times a week.... Depending
on what I have to offer...
And if your dog is going to be working.... Like hunting All Day..... you should... feed your dog double Animal protein only two days prior. Then fast the dog....
Morning of hunt... Take three ounces of fat per 50 pounds of dog... I prefer chicken or turkey fat,,, because it is the easiest to work with... but any pure animal fat works... And U prefer Meyers lemons or key limes.... But any sour citrus works...... Even crushed up Grapefruit seeds...
What you are trying do do is give the dog Ready energy.... and high dose of Vitamin C....And if you are running the dog......a couple of days in a row.....you give the dogs the same fat and citrus blend the night of the first hunt..
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Post by whitebacon on May 26, 2024 6:26:03 GMT -5
Like others in this thread have mentioned, I routinely gave our dogs table scraps, we only cooked natural foods, nothing processed, ever.
Whatever trash fish we caught, like mackeral, kingfish, bonito, grunts, etc, all got cleaned for the dogs. I boiled the filets before feeding the dogs. Needless to say they ultimately turned their noses up to "dog food".
They never got sick, were happy as could be, and died of old age, not disease.
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Post by johnnybandit on May 26, 2024 16:19:22 GMT -5
Like others in this thread have mentioned, I routinely gave our dogs table scraps, we only cooked natural foods, nothing processed, ever. Whatever trash fish we caught, like mackeral, kingfish, bonito, grunts, etc, all got cleaned for the dogs. I boiled the filets before feeding the dogs. Needless to say they ultimately turned their noses up to "dog food". They never got sick, were happy as could be, and died of old age, not disease. All I do with fish, is cut sharp fins and sharp teeth of... And they get the whole fish. Or a big chunk of it, if it is a big fish....... My dogs like oily fish the best...
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Post by tonyroma on May 26, 2024 16:35:55 GMT -5
Gotta figure primitive man was feeding his newly domesticated wolf the leftovers of what they had just eaten. Now primitive man was eating much more healthy then todays man. So those dogs weren’t eating Doritos and ice cream. Dogs mirror people in todays society, big fat human , big fat dog.
Let’s not forget how dogs probably got domesticated. Bunch of humans sitting around a fire after they killed a mammoth. Grizzle and fat get thrown over their shoulders. Dogs get closer because they are opportunists. Way easier to eat scraps then pull down a Buffalo.
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Post by bullfrog on May 26, 2024 21:52:51 GMT -5
Gotta figure primitive man was feeding his newly domesticated wolf the leftovers of what they had just eaten. Now primitive man was eating much more healthy then todays man. So those dogs weren’t eating Doritos and ice cream. Dogs mirror people in todays society, big fat human , big fat dog. Let’s not forget how dogs probably got domesticated. Bunch of humans sitting around a fire after they killed a mammoth. Grizzle and fat get thrown over their shoulders. Dogs get closer because they are opportunists. Way easier to eat scraps then pull down a Buffalo. I suspect they just brought the puppies home out of a wolf den and raised them and kept the most friendly ones. We generally don’t see adult wild wolves cozying up to campfires today. I doubt wolves came to us first. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
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Post by johnnybandit on May 26, 2024 22:00:22 GMT -5
Gotta figure primitive man was feeding his newly domesticated wolf the leftovers of what they had just eaten. Now primitive man was eating much more healthy then todays man. So those dogs weren’t eating Doritos and ice cream. Dogs mirror people in todays society, big fat human , big fat dog. Let’s not forget how dogs probably got domesticated. Bunch of humans sitting around a fire after they killed a mammoth. Grizzle and fat get thrown over their shoulders. Dogs get closer because they are opportunists. Way easier to eat scraps then pull down a Buffalo. I suspect they just brought the puppies home out of a wolf den and raised them and kept the most friendly ones. We generally don’t see adult wild wolves cozying up to campfires today. I doubt wolves came to us first. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_foxThat is the opposite of the way most scientists have it.... Archeological evidence shows that wolves chose us......
It is not a logical conclusion that early man with Primative weapons would attempt to force away an entire pack of wolves to raid a den and steal the cubs.... And definitely not with enough frequency to establish a domesticated animal.....
Fact is... Early humans mimicked wolf social structures...We became the dominate species because of wolves.
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Post by bullfrog on May 26, 2024 22:20:12 GMT -5
I suspect they just brought the puppies home out of a wolf den and raised them and kept the most friendly ones. We generally don’t see adult wild wolves cozying up to campfires today. I doubt wolves came to us first. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_foxThat is the opposite of the way most scientists have it.... Archeological evidence shows that wolves chose us......
It is not a logical conclusion that early man with Primative weapons would attempt to force away an entire pack of wolves to raid a den and steal the cubs.... And definitely not with enough frequency to establish a domesticated animal.....
Fact is... Early humans mimicked wolf social structures...We became the dominate species because of wolves.
There’s no archeology showing a wolf creeping up to a human camp to get scraps. That’s not even how archeology works. Without having writings or pictographs showing the domestication of the dog, there’s no way to dig anything up and know how they did it from that kind of evidence. So the next best thing is to look at the biology and use common sense. We know that generally domestication happens by human selection. We know this because we can do it in a laboratory. And we know that human selection starts by capturing a wild animal, usually at a young age, and raising it in captivity. You say its not realistic for stone-age humans to take wolf cubs. Yet that’s exactly what many Native American tribes did. They were stone age cultures. They learned the best way to control wolf populations was to find their dens and steal the pups. They then ate the pups. That’s why wolf puppy is a delicacy across many Native American tribes that share little else in common. At some point, ancient humans were probably doing something similar in Europe or Asia and decided to keep some of the pups every so often.
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Post by tonyroma on May 27, 2024 0:20:55 GMT -5
That is the opposite of the way most scientists have it.... Archeological evidence shows that wolves chose us......
It is not a logical conclusion that early man with Primative weapons would attempt to force away an entire pack of wolves to raid a den and steal the cubs.... And definitely not with enough frequency to establish a domesticated animal.....
Fact is... Early humans mimicked wolf social structures...We became the dominate species because of wolves.
There’s no archeology showing a wolf creeping up to a human camp to get scraps. That’s not even how archeology works. Without having writings or pictographs showing the domestication of the dog, there’s no way to dig anything up and know how they did it from that kind of evidence. So the next best thing is to look at the biology and use common sense. We know that generally domestication happens by human selection. We know this because we can do it in a laboratory. And we know that human selection starts by capturing a wild animal, usually at a young age, and raising it in captivity. You say its not realistic for stone-age humans to take wolf cubs. Yet that’s exactly what many Native American tribes did. They were stone age cultures. They learned the best way to control wolf populations was to find their dens and steal the pups. They then ate the pups. That’s why wolf puppy is a delicacy across many Native American tribes that share little else in common. At some point, ancient humans were probably doing something similar in Europe or Asia and decided to keep some of the pups every so often. So a pack of wolves following a pack of hunting humans doesn’t make sense? Human kills giant animal , cooks, packs , and eats as much as possible . Giant caucus remains. Why wouldn’t the wolves follow that food source . Digging pups out of the den seems like a stretch.
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Post by bullfrog on May 27, 2024 0:49:09 GMT -5
There’s no archeology showing a wolf creeping up to a human camp to get scraps. That’s not even how archeology works. Without having writings or pictographs showing the domestication of the dog, there’s no way to dig anything up and know how they did it from that kind of evidence. So the next best thing is to look at the biology and use common sense. We know that generally domestication happens by human selection. We know this because we can do it in a laboratory. And we know that human selection starts by capturing a wild animal, usually at a young age, and raising it in captivity. You say its not realistic for stone-age humans to take wolf cubs. Yet that’s exactly what many Native American tribes did. They were stone age cultures. They learned the best way to control wolf populations was to find their dens and steal the pups. They then ate the pups. That’s why wolf puppy is a delicacy across many Native American tribes that share little else in common. At some point, ancient humans were probably doing something similar in Europe or Asia and decided to keep some of the pups every so often. So a pack of wolves following a pack of hunting humans doesn’t make sense? Human kills giant animal , cooks, packs , and eats as much as possible . Giant caucus remains. Why wouldn’t the wolves follow that food source . Digging pups out of the den seems like a stretch. Its not impossible, but less likely than simply capturing and raising pups. Why is digging pups out of den a stretch? Its easy. Easiest way for a human to put their hands on a wild canine. Stone age people (Native Americans) as well as moderns did and still do it all the time. Simple thought experiment: suppose you want a pet wolf from the wild. You drive to Montana and are given the location of a wild wolf pack as well as a den with puppies. Option 1 is to kill an elk, cook it on your camp fire, eat it, and discard the scraps, with the hope that at some point the wild wolves will present themselves to you and exchange prolonged contact for food. Option two is go to the den, run the parents back, grab a pup that just opened its eyes, and take it home. Guess which option is the only realistic option to yield you a wolf? Once you have the wolf, you follow the steps described in the silver fox experiment I linked above (it would take several wolves to breed). That process scientifically proven to morph a wild animal into a domesticated one. It even specifically produces the same traits in foxes that define domestic dogs (floppy ears, barking, ect).
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Post by johnnybandit on May 27, 2024 17:30:05 GMT -5
So a pack of wolves following a pack of hunting humans doesn’t make sense? Human kills giant animal , cooks, packs , and eats as much as possible . Giant caucus remains. Why wouldn’t the wolves follow that food source . Digging pups out of the den seems like a stretch. Its not impossible, but less likely than simply capturing and raising pups. Why is digging pups out of den a stretch? Its easy. Easiest way for a human to put their hands on a wild canine. Stone age people (Native Americans) as well as moderns did and still do it all the time. Simple thought experiment: suppose you want a pet wolf from the wild. You drive to Montana and are given the location of a wild wolf pack as well as a den with puppies. Option 1 is to kill an elk, cook it on your camp fire, eat it, and discard the scraps, with the hope that at some point the wild wolves will present themselves to you and exchange prolonged contact for food. Option two is go to the den, run the parents back, grab a pup that just opened its eyes, and take it home. Guess which option is the only realistic option to yield you a wolf? Once you have the wolf, you follow the steps described in the silver fox experiment I linked above (it would take several wolves to breed). That process scientifically proven to morph a wild animal into a domesticated one. It even specifically produces the same traits in foxes that define domestic dogs (floppy ears, barking, ect). There are multiple theories.... But yours is pretty far fetched... At least on a large enough scale for dogs to evolve from wolves... I am not going to say early man never raided a wolf den..... It had to have happened...
The more likely scenario is that wolves started hanging around human camps and foraging off of scraps humans discarded..... Some wolves obviously figured out that this was a pretty easy to make a living..... Some wolves were over time became quite used to humans.... Humans started seeing the value of these more friendly wolves being around...They alerted the camp of danger, aided in tracking and hunting..... Over time these wolves that chose to live around humans would have bred with each other... they would have passed on the traits for temperament that caused them to so easily lose their fear of humans. And they would have also taught their offspring their survival and relationship strategies with humans.
I am pretty familiar with the Silver Fox experiment.... And it did largely work.... But in a controlled setting....
Wolves transitioned from dogs over possibly thousands of years......
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Post by bullfrog on May 27, 2024 20:12:10 GMT -5
Its not impossible, but less likely than simply capturing and raising pups. Why is digging pups out of den a stretch? Its easy. Easiest way for a human to put their hands on a wild canine. Stone age people (Native Americans) as well as moderns did and still do it all the time. Simple thought experiment: suppose you want a pet wolf from the wild. You drive to Montana and are given the location of a wild wolf pack as well as a den with puppies. Option 1 is to kill an elk, cook it on your camp fire, eat it, and discard the scraps, with the hope that at some point the wild wolves will present themselves to you and exchange prolonged contact for food. Option two is go to the den, run the parents back, grab a pup that just opened its eyes, and take it home. Guess which option is the only realistic option to yield you a wolf? Once you have the wolf, you follow the steps described in the silver fox experiment I linked above (it would take several wolves to breed). That process scientifically proven to morph a wild animal into a domesticated one. It even specifically produces the same traits in foxes that define domestic dogs (floppy ears, barking, ect). There are multiple theories.... But yours is pretty far fetched... At least on a large enough scale for dogs to evolve from wolves... I am not going to say early man never raided a wolf den..... It had to have happened...
The more likely scenario is that wolves started hanging around human camps and foraging off of scraps humans discarded..... Some wolves obviously figured out that this was a pretty easy to make a living..... Some wolves were over time became quite used to humans.... Humans started seeing the value of these more friendly wolves being around...They alerted the camp of danger, aided in tracking and hunting..... Over time these wolves that chose to live around humans would have bred with each other... they would have passed on the traits for temperament that caused them to so easily lose their fear of humans. And they would have also taught their offspring their survival and relationship strategies with humans.
I am pretty familiar with the Silver Fox experiment.... And it did largely work.... But in a controlled setting....
Wolves transitioned from dogs over possibly thousands of years......
I bet it happened and was generally done with within a century or two. It doesn't take long at all for a human to morph one species of animal into another. It only takes about 5 years to make radically new domestic breeds for many kinds of animals if the breeder knows what they're doing. All of the domesticated animals in the world came from wild ancestors, some of which still live, others of which went extinct in earlier or later history. When all the other kinds of domestic animals were tamed, it was by man capturing their wild counterparts and then selectively breeding them. Why would dogs be radically different? I would submit the proclivity to believe this is due to the special pedestal Westerners put dogs on. We want to be believe they chose us because that seems emotionally "special" and consistent with our modern Fido who wants constant attention from us.
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